China DOS Union

The following is quoted from 不点's speech on 2003-11-27 19:11:06:
This line is too long, and displays abnormally in my mozilla browser, so I broke it with carriage returns:

when we map or substitute one driver letter for another with our real-mode assembly DOS program,
not using Windows'''' SUBST command; all drives enter into real-mode under Win98. However, when
we call another DOS program doing something not essential within our DOS program before issuing
win.com, after entering in Windows, Win98 can recognize all hard disk drives, using Protected Mode.

＝＝＝＝＝＝＝

It is indeed strange, and I am also encountering this kind of problem for the first time. I think perhaps your technical staff can help me; after all, they have long dealt with things in this area. I feel, first, win98 may have bugs, especially the strange situation your company encountered, plus the situation we encountered here with int13, all illustrate this point. Second, there is also this possibility: win98 treats us as a virus, and it deliberately makes the system run abnormally in this environment. In a DOS BOX I used debug to run int13 to read certain sectors. The 2n -th bytes of these sectors are all correct, while the 2n+1 -th bytes are all 0. That is to say every other byte is 0, and the remaining half of the bytes are correct. Based on this, I feel it is not as simple as a BUG, but deliberate. Think about it: what software, when reading sectors, would have this kind of error? Simply impossible. Whether using BIOS, or direct IO port hardware reading/writing, the whole sector is read out together, not read out byte by byte this way. So if it is wrong, the whole sector should be totally unrecognizable; if it is correct, then all of it is correct, with not the slightest difference. Therefore, for the alternating errors described above, I think it is almost 100% deliberately created. Therefore, if we find this section of win98's program and correct it, it should be OK . Similarly, the situation your company encountered, (I think) can also be solved by debugging win98 (of course your company's situation is not very serious, so it can also be left unsolved).

Hi,

Thank you very much!

Let's keep in contact.

By the way, I agree with you that it is M$ which intentionally causes those trouble.
It always tests something to make sure that it is in M$'s environment before Windows starts properly.

Examples:

1. You cannot install or start Win9x under Freedos.
2. It uses MSDOS.SYS to configure information about where Win9x is installed.
3. It creates Registry to better control or hide its system initialization information
4. It causes troubles in situations which you and we experience. For instance, when you use Mapping for different drives instead of using M$ SUBST command; and when you use int13 hook to redirect the location of access, M$ does something to make sure either one part or all parts of Windows fail.
5. Windows Update is another function in which it will use to destroy your machine.

Some some people have expressed the opinion that Win9x might be more and more valueable as it is less affected by Windows Update function or some features built into those later versions of Windows that enable M$ to control the Windows OS running in your machine.

For the technical problems you face, you should make sure you know what you want first. That is what do you want Grub for DOS for.

If it is for starting real DOS and running real mode DOS programmes. You have no problem.

If you want to start Win9x, then you should make sure you restore the environment changes that you made to fool Win9x to think that it is right for it to start.

So if you boot from the VFloppy, you should remove the VFloppy before you start Win9x.

If you want to access the image of the VFloppy within Win9x, you probably can use our VDisk Manager included with our WINDRV. The VDisk Manager and the associated Protected Mode Virtual Disk Driver is free for personal and private use.

We shall release a better version of WINDRV in the coming week.

Please pay a visit to:

windrv.net

and enter the Forum area: Windrv FAQ

for details.

Our VDisk Manager can help you load the IMG files into a ramdisk and you can also save the contents of the ramdisk back into IMG files. The IMG files can be up to Gigabytes. And you can use Defrag with our Virtual Ramdisk. You can see how fast it is.

We are busy with the new version now. After that, we shall write better FAQ & Help files.

Thank you! My replies are mixed into your post, as follows:

Examples:

1. You cannot install or start Win9x under Freedos.

Yes, I know this too.

2. It uses MSDOS.SYS to configure information about where Win9x is installed.

Yes, there are also many other complicated configuration files, which look like convenient means of control, and also like things such as secret passages. Such as ios.ini, winstart.bat, and so on.

3. It creates Registry to better control or hide its system initialization information

Yes, the registry is very useful for businesses to use password encryption to protect their products, but for users it seems useless.

4. It causes troubles in situations which you and we experience. For instance,
when you use Mapping for different drives instead of using M$ SUBST command;
and when you use int13 hook to redirect the location of access, M$ does something
to make sure either one part or all parts of Windows fail.

Yes, Microsoft is good at changing standards and not supporting past software. These early software programs were produced by other companies and may be very competitive.

5. Windows Update is another function in which it will use to destroy your machine.

Some some people have expressed the opinion that Win9x might be more and more valueable
as it is less affected by Windows Update function or some features built into those
later versions of Windows that enable M$ to control the Windows OS running in your machine.

I am also afraid, but for win98, I have not heard of this kind of destruction actually happening.

For the technical problems you face, you should make sure you know what you want first.
That is what do you want Grub for DOS for.

If it is for starting real DOS and running real mode DOS programmes. You have no problem.

If you want to start Win9x, then you should make sure you restore the environment changes
that you made to fool Win9x to think that it is right for it to start.

I myself hope GRUB for DOS can be used normally under win98. This was my original goal. Since discovering the problem above,
I no longer especially encourage other people to use it this way. Under DOS and without "32-bit disk access" it is already relatively normal. But this
does not show that this environment is absolutely safe. For example, is it safe under EMM386? Can some disk partitioning and backup software run safely?
And so on; these are all questions. Safety is only relative. Compared with running win98, running DOS is indeed somewhat safer.

So if you boot from the VFloppy, you should remove the VFloppy
before you start Win9x.

Regarding this, if I disable emulation first during win98 startup, then win98 will no longer use the int13 interface. That is to say, under win98
one can only access the real floppy and cannot access the floppy redirected by int13. If this involves your company's patent, I will not ask in detail further.
If your company can publish the method just mentioned (or source program), I certainly welcome it very much.

If you want to access the image of the VFloppy within Win9x, you probably can use our VDisk
Manager included with our WINDRV. The VDisk Manager and the associated Protected Mode Virtual
Disk Driver is free for personal and private use.

This is good news. A commercial company supporting emulation software can allow emulation software to be fully used by the public. It really is good news!

Also, your company making it free for personal users: I have always approved of this behavior. This is the most practical and feasible commercial licensing method (especially in China).

We shall release a better version of WINDRV in the coming week.

Please pay a visit to:

windrv.net

and enter the Forum area: Windrv FAQ

for details.

I have not gone to look yet, but I will go look. Thank you.

Our VDisk Manager can help you load the IMG files into a ramdisk and you can also save the
contents of the ramdisk back into IMG files. The IMG files can be up to Gigabytes. And you
can use Defrag with our Virtual Ramdisk. You can see how fast it is.

We are busy with the new version now. After that, we shall write better FAQ & Help files.

What your company has implemented (this method), I did not plan to implement from the beginning. I do not use a RAM disk. I know that after using a RAM disk,
the problem is probably solved, but I do not have relevant knowledge of RAM disks and cannot write such a program. The emulation program I wrote is too elementary,
too introductory, not complicated at all, and very easy to understand. But its functions or performance will not be too good; this is its shortcoming. At present I still have to devote myself to solving the problem that grub
for dos has in win98.

Thank you! Network exchange is very good!

The following is quoted from hunome's speech on 2003-12-1 15:25:16:
to windrv:
does your products support the img files in a ntfs partition?

Please go to www.systeminternals.com and install its NTFS driver for Win9x. We have tested after installing this driver, you can access NTFS partition uploaded onto our virtual ramdisk.

We may implement direct NTFS partition support in future if there is demand.

Hello windrv, replying together with your post as follows:

I have talked to my staff and he is also interested in your project. He should know much more about the relevant technical details than me.

Good news, thank you and this staff member of yours!

After talking to him, he mentioned that according to his experience in writing a Partition Manager
using VXD under Win9x, Win9x does not import real-mode DOS int13 information when entering
into Protected-Mode.

Yes, if windows uses 32-bit disk access, it no longer uses the int13 interface. However, if it finds it necessary to use DOS compatibility-mode disk access for a certain disk, then win98 still has to use int13. Also, even if it fully uses 32-bit disk access, windows is not completely separated from the int13 interface. windows seems to have a vxd to handle int25, int26, int13 calls. Also, int13 can always be used in an MS-DOS window (only sometimes errors appear, as with the deliberate wrong results I mentioned above). Regarding the internal mechanism of 32-bit disk access, I am still not clear. I do not know whether it is completely separated from real-mode int13 like win2000? Or whether it tries to directly call the 16-bit int13 program in a protected-mode environment (this may perhaps be unlikely).

So it is different when you use real-mode int13 for disk access and protected-mode
32-bit disk access. This may be the reason for the trouble you find.

The two are indeed different, but since my int13 is ultimately treated by windows using MS-DOS compatibility mode, I ultimately do not touch 32-bit disk access. That is to say, I always have to use the 16-bit int13 interface. When win98 uses compatibility mode to access a disk, its behavior is exactly the same as its behavior in a DOS window. This is one of my discoveries. So as long as the problem appearing in the DOS window is solved, the whole problem is solved. Therefore I want to use SoftICE to find windows' error (no matter when or where this error occurs, just correct it).

Sometimes, he has to transit into real-mode to get the real-mode int13 information for the
protected-mode process he works out.

I wonder whether int13 can be used directly in protected mode? Protected-mode segment attributes can also be set to 16-bit. Also, if it is only calling int13, then it seems some vxd of windows itself provides this interface, with no need to switch into real mode.

May be someday when he is not so busy, I ask him to contact you.

Could you give us your email address so that we can correspond?

My email is:

windrv@windrv.net

I understand. The capable have more work; they are always relatively busy. My email is: tinybit@163.net. Thank you for the introduction.
(However, to add one point, I do not check email often, about once a month; but I come to the forum often, almost once every day.)

Bad, SoftICE driver suite 2.7 cannot be used under win98 in vmware.

This is really weird. It could be installed on a real machine before, but this time it does not work under vmware. Who can help? As long as winice is loaded, it cannot enter win98 and crashes. This has nothing to do with GRUB emulation. Before I have even started using grub, it already cannot enter win98.

The following is quoted from 不点's post at 2003-12-2 21:47:09:
Bad, SoftICE driver suite 2.7 cannot be used under win98 in vmware.

不点: Does this Soft-ICE 2.7 mean the DOS version or the WIN version? When did it crash, and in what state?

Brother, you don't know the half of it. To install softice, you could say I went through all kinds of hardship. First I found the latest SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 to install; this thing, even compressed with rar, actually takes up 92M of space. I had to use a USB flash drive twice to carry it from the office to home. But then it actually said this could not run under win98, and said I should install version 2.7. Finding 2.7 took quite a bit of effort, and I finally found several 2.7 versions. These versions are all for win9x, but they actually do not support vmware's hardware (I guess it is vmware's video card). Now this is trouble. It crashes during boot, just before the windows desktop is about to appear but before it has appeared. I installed it many times, same situation.

Unless using it on a real machine; I know that will definitely work, but I don't dare debug GRUB under those circumstances.

The following is quoted from 不点's post at 2003-12-3 9:09:15:
Brother, you don't know the half of it. To install softice, you could say I went through all kinds of hardship. First I found the latest SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 to install, this thing, even compressed with rar, actually takes up 92M of space, I had to use a U disk twice to carry it from the office to home. But then, it actually said this could not run under win98, and said I should install version 2.7. Finding 2,7 took quite a bit of effort, and I finally found several 2.7 versions. These versions are all for win9x, but they actually do not support vmware hardware (I guess it is vmware's video card). Now this is trouble. It crashes during boot, just before the windows desktop is about to appear but before it has appeared. I installed it many times, same situation.

Unless using it on a real machine, I know that will definitely work, but I don't dare debug GRUB under those circumstances.

Hi,

Have you tried using Bochs instead of Vmware?

And could you tell me where in the northern part of China you are?

The following is quoted from 不点's post at 2003-12-3 9:09:15:
Brother, you don't know the half of it. To install softice, you could say I went through all kinds of hardship. First I found the latest SOFTICE DRIVER SUITE 3.0 to install, this thing, even compressed with rar, actually takes up 92M of space, I had to use a U disk twice to carry it from the office to home. But then, it actually said this could not run under win98, and said I should install version 2.7. Finding 2,7 took quite a bit of effort, and I finally found several 2.7 versions. These versions are all for win9x, but they actually do not support vmware hardware (I guess it is vmware's video card). Now this is trouble. It crashes during boot, just before the windows desktop is about to appear but before it has appeared. I installed it many times, same situation.

Unless using it on a real machine, I know that will definitely work, but I don't dare debug GRUB under those circumstances.

Hi Tinybit,

Why not use a real hard disk to test instead?

Last Saturday, I bought 2 second hand hard disks at Guangzhou. Its size is 1.2G and looks like a new one after refurbishing.

It costs me only RMB15 each .

So you could try using this kind of cheap hard disks for testing and development.

Would vpc work?

Reply to brother windrv:

Have you tried using Bochs instead of Vmware?

I have not used it. I feel BOCHS is still not suitable. It has a hard time booting windows; at least it is unbearably slow.

And could you tell me where in the northern part of China you are?

On a technical forum, what we mainly care about are technical issues and their solutions; other issues are very secondary, I feel. Especially with the Internet, the Earth is no more than a village, and there will be no obstacles to technical exchange and exchange of ideas. Sorry, I have never disclosed my real information to anyone, because the Internet is a virtual world (and therefore also an unsafe world). I think you will understand.

Why not use a real hard disk to test instead?

Last Saturday, I bought 2 second hand hard disks at Guangzhou. Its size is 1.2G and looks like a new one after refurbishing.

It costs me only RMB15 each .

So you could try using this kind of cheap hard disks for testing and development.

A real disk is something I could get anyway. But I think it is best to do it in vmware, because that is very convenient.

Reply to brother hunome:

Would vpc work?

I use a LINUX system, so I can only use vmware, not VPC. I suggest brothers using WINDOWS try VPC.

The goals of grub for dos are far from being reached. There are still complex and difficult tasks waiting, such as emulating the iso CD file system, booting CDROM, and so on (these issues were once discussed in a forum on this site). Although I very much support your grub for win, it seems I no longer have time to do it, very sorry. Thank you for all your help and support.

In the future grub for dos may also be able to run from the DOS window of win98. But it may not necessarily be able to run from the win2000 environment. This depends on whether win2000 can be HACKed so that we can easily switch from protected mode to real mode. But these for windows implementations are not in the plan, and perhaps there simply will be no time to do them.