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whowin
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『楼 主』:
我对DOS下GUI的看法
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
我个人认为,DOS下的GUI没有什么意义!
DOS的长项并不在图形上,而且,既然选择使用DOS,肯定不是因为它的GUI好,做嵌入式,往往功能在主要,界面在其次,界面的功能在主要,美观在其次,我所做的项目中几乎想不起来那个还有鼠标,大部分根本连键盘都没有,我有一个在我的项目里通用的设置解决方案,就是用一个三键的小按钮,有时做到面板上,有时外接,需要的时候插上,用三个键完成所有的设置,想想看,这样的一个系统,GUI有什么用。我们在做LINUX嵌入式时,要对LINUX做大量的裁减,基本上没有人会去保留GUI。
首先说明,看到一些年轻人做的DOS下的GUI,真的很下功夫,很好。我只是凭我20年的DOS使用经验,觉得它可能前途渺茫,没有什么实用价值。一家之言。
看看WINDOWS的发展历程,1985年MS推出WINDOWS1.0,1987年2.0,这两个版本基本没有什么生命力,可能很多人都不知道,1990年WINDOWS出现了3.0,WINDOWS至此开始抬头,92年WINDOWS的3.1版是一个很有代表性的版本,使WINDOWS风靡,但是一直到win2000以前,WINDOWS不过就是一个DOS下的应用程序,根本就算不上一个操作系统,说得不好听一点,就是在DOS下的一个GUI。我想说的是,在DOS下开发GUI无非就是走MS的老路,做他们曾经做过的事,真的是没有必要。
在怎么样,把界面做成windows和MAC OS的样子,恐怕是很难有人在追上了,而且我觉得,如果对GUI要求很高,那它对稳定性和可靠性方面一般会要求不高,所以完全可以不用DOS,用WINDOWS或者WINDOWS CE不是很好吗,开发起来也容易一些。
再次强调,一家之言。
I personally think that the GUI under DOS is of no significance! The strength of DOS does not lie in graphics. Moreover, since one chooses to use DOS, it is definitely not because of its good GUI. For embedded systems, functionality is often the primary concern, interface comes next, and within the interface, functionality is primary, and aesthetics come next. In the projects I have done, I can hardly remember any that have a mouse, and most don't even have a keyboard. I have a general setting solution in my projects, which is to use a three-button small button, sometimes on the panel, sometimes externally connected, and plug it in when needed. All settings are done with three buttons. Think about it, what is the use of a GUI in such a system. When we do LINUX embedded systems, we need to cut down a lot on LINUX, and basically no one will keep the GUI.
First of all, I want to say that I really put in a lot of effort and it's very good to see the GUIs under DOS made by some young people. I just, based on my 20 years of experience using DOS, think that it may have a bleak future and no practical value. Just my personal opinion.
Look at the development history of WINDOWS. In 1985, MS launched WINDOWS 1.0, and in 1987, 2.0. These two versions basically had no vitality. Maybe many people don't know. In 1990, WINDOWS 3.0 appeared, and WINDOWS began to rise from then on. The 3.1 version of WINDOWS in 1992 was a very representative version that made WINDOWS popular. But until before win2000, WINDOWS was just an application under DOS and didn't count as an operating system at all. To put it bluntly, it was just a GUI under DOS. I want to say that developing a GUI under DOS is just following the old path of MS, doing what they have done, and it's really unnecessary.
In any case, it's恐怕 very difficult for anyone to catch up with making the interface look like Windows and MAC OS. Moreover, I think that if there are very high requirements for the GUI, then generally the requirements for stability and reliability will not be high. So it's completely okay to not use DOS and use WINDOWS or WINDOWS CE, which is better, and it's easier to develop.
Once again, just my personal opinion.
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2007-6-1 09:41 |
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taowentao
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『第 2 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
如果针对DOS,楼主说的非常正确;不过,如果软件结构做的合理,对底层驱动分离的彻底,核心抽象层做的全面,移植性就应该不错,可很容易转到其它平台...
If it is for DOS, what the original poster said is very correct; however, if the software structure is reasonably done, the separation of the underlying drivers is thorough, and the core abstraction layer is comprehensive, the portability should be relatively good, and it can be easily transferred to other platforms...
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来自山东,现居沈阳 |
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2007-6-2 16:17 |
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whowin
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『第 3 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
一切都做得很好,移植性也很好,在DOS下做了个GUI,成功地又移植到了其它平台,意义何在,不能为了移植去做一样东西,也不能为了GUI去做GUI,做的东西一定要有需求,一个东西做完了,一定要有成千上万的人在各种不同的场合去实际的用了,这个东西你才能骄傲地说,它基本上没有问题,自己去测试自己的东西永远做不出好东西,所以,需求是造就一样东西成败的动力,就DOS而言,现如今还有我这样的人在实际应用,还有许多像我的客户那样的人告诉我你在DOS下做的比他们在WINDOWS下做的好,这就是DOS继续存在的必要性,但是这么多年来,DOS几乎停滞不前,为什么,因为没有相应的需求,DOS在发展应该是什么?想来想去,无非就是WINDOWS和LINUX,已经有了,为什么还要去做?为什么DJGPP可以发展起来,因为随着机器配置的提高,人们需要运行32位的代码,为什么ALLEGRO能够发展,因为人们希望在低配置的机器上,显示和在WINDOWS下一样好的画面,而这时纯DOS做起来很困难的事,这些都是以需求为动力的!
linus为什么要开发LINUX,是因为MINIX的一些性能不能让人满意,而又没有替代的操作系统,这也是需求。
没有那个东西是没有需求而又能成功的,当你要做一件事的时候,想想有多少人有这个需求,问问那些和你做的这件事有关系的人,他们是不是需要你做的东西,或许这些会帮助你做出正确的决定。
以前,我用过一个在X86架构下的,INTEL的一款实时操作系统,叫iRMX,性能很好,我们用它做了个万门程控交换机,而且通过了邮电部的监测,拿到了入网许可证。一直很怀念那个操作系统可惜很多年前INTEL已经宣布不再对该系统进行支持,我想不是因为那个系统不好,而是用户数量太少,不足以让他有旺盛的生命力。
Everything is done very well, and portability is also very good. A GUI was made under DOS and successfully ported to other platforms. What is the significance? We can't do something just for portability, and we can't do a GUI just for the sake of a GUI. The thing made must have a demand. After a thing is completed, there must be thousands of people using it in various different scenarios. Only then can you proudly say that it is basically without problems. Testing your own thing alone will never make a good thing. So, demand is the driving force for the success or failure of a thing. As for DOS, there are still people like me using it in practice nowadays, and many people like my customers tell me that what you did under DOS is better than what they did under WINDOWS. This is the necessity for DOS to continue to exist. But for so many years, DOS has almost stood still. Why? Because there is no corresponding demand. What should DOS develop into? After thinking it over, it's nothing more than WINDOWS and LINUX, which already exist. Why do we still need to do it? Why can DJGPP develop? Because with the improvement of machine configuration, people need to run 32-bit code. Why can ALLEGRO develop? Because people hope to display pictures as well as under WINDOWS on low - configuration machines, and at this time, it's very difficult to do it in pure DOS. All these are driven by demand!
Why did Linus develop LINUX? Because some performance of MINIX was not satisfactory, and there was no alternative operating system, which is also demand.
No thing can be successful without demand. When you want to do something, think about how many people have this demand, and ask those people related to the thing you are doing whether they need the thing you are making. Maybe these will help you make the right decision.
In the past, I used an operating system for real - time on the X86 architecture, an INTEL one called iRMX. It had very good performance. We used it to make a ten - thousand - door program - controlled switch, and it passed the monitoring of the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications and got the access license. I always miss that operating system. Unfortunately, many years ago, INTEL had announced that it would no longer support this system. I think it's not because the system was bad, but because the number of users was too small, which was not enough to make it have a vigorous vitality.
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2007-6-3 14:06 |
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firstsail
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『第 4 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
(1)如果该“嵌入式系统”是X86架构的PC104电脑,CPU是8086、80186、80286、80386、80486,并且用上了LCD或VGA
(2)如果您现在是一名电子开发工程师或者嵌入式项目开发工程师
(3)如果您现在是一家企业的BOSS
----如果您选择采用“WinCE”或者是"Unix",那么在中国国内,以现在(2007年,深圳)的市场行情,您至少给出¥8000人民币来聘请软件工程师。
----如果CPU是8086、80186的情况下,您只能选择DOS,并且是唯一的选择。
----如里CPU是80386以上,如果不选择DOS的情况下,您只有选择Unix或WinCE了,请问一下,在中国,精通DOS开发的人多,还是精通UNIX或WinCE的人多呢?
在嵌入式应用中,选择"DOS"系统,是最"节省成本"的方案,包括开发时间控制、成本控制等等.
目前,嵌入式PC104一般选用16M(以上)的电子盘,或者16M(以上)的CF卡。在我的嵌入式应用上,我就将开发工具BC31都安装上了,以便于现场修改程序。
没有什么东西是万能的,正由于嵌入式系统硬件的千变万化,所以DOS下的GUI才有发展的需要。老是拿DOS与WINDOWS、UNIX并列讨论,没有实际的意义。
简而言之---- 萝卜白菜,各有所爱;DOS、UNIX、WinCE,各有千秋。并且在嵌入式应用中,往往是以企业本身的技术积累为基础,从而明智的作出选用何种操作系统。
我见过不少“精通UNIX,没有不精通DOS编程的人”。
我见过不少“精通DOS,而对UNIX的认识只局限于书面知识的人”。
我见过不少“精通DOS,而对WinCE闻所未闻的人”。
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-3 at 07:44 PM ]
(1)If this "embedded system" is an X86 architecture PC104 computer, with a CPU of 8086, 80186, 80286, 80386, 80486, and using LCD or VGA
(2)If you are currently an electronic development engineer or an embedded project development engineer
(3)If you are the boss of an enterprise
----If you choose to use "WinCE" or "Unix", then in the domestic market in China, with the current market conditions (2007, Shenzhen), you need to pay at least ¥8000 RMB to hire software engineers.
----If the CPU is 8086 or 80186, you can only choose DOS, and it is the only option.
----If the CPU is above 80386, if you do not choose DOS, you can only choose Unix or WinCE. Then, in China, are there more people proficient in DOS development or more people proficient in Unix or WinCE?
In embedded applications, choosing the "DOS" system is the most "cost-saving" solution, including development time control, cost control, etc.
Currently, embedded PC104 generally uses an electronic disk of 16M (or more) or a CF card of 16M (or more). In my embedded application, I have installed the development tool BC31, so as to modify the program on site.
Nothing is all-purpose. Precisely because the hardware of embedded systems varies widely, the need for a GUI under DOS has developed. It is not meaningful to always discuss DOS side by side with WINDOWS and UNIX.
In short----Different people have different preferences; DOS, UNIX, and WinCE each have their own advantages. And in embedded applications, it is often based on the technical accumulation of the enterprise itself, so as to make a wise choice of which operating system to use.
I have seen many "people proficient in UNIX, and not not proficient in DOS programming".
I have seen many "people proficient in DOS, but with only limited knowledge of UNIX from written materials".
I have seen many "people proficient in DOS, but have never heard of WinCE".
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-3 at 07:44 PM ]
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2007-6-3 19:15 |
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zhgwbzhd
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『第 5 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
关键现在的人看到你的界面很好,就会买呀,只有用到之后才会了解实际功能呀。
业务员都会说功能没问题的。
所以先给人家呈现的就是界面呀。
The key is that now people will buy it when they see your interface is very good, and they will only understand the actual functions after using it. Salespeople will all say that the functions are no problem. So the first thing to present to others is the interface.
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2007-6-4 09:34 |
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enjoyer
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『第 6 楼』:
4楼的朋友
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
如果您选择采用“WinCE”或者是"Unix",那么在中国国内,以现在(2007年,深圳)的市场行情,您至少给出¥8000人民币来聘请软件工程师。
4楼的朋友,请教一下,如果是聘请DOS下的开发人员,开出的月薪是多少呢?
Last edited by enjoyer on 2007-6-5 at 11:34 PM ]
If you choose to use "WinCE" or "Unix", then in the domestic market of China (Shenzhen in 2007), you need to offer at least ¥8000 RMB to hire a software engineer.
Friend on the 4th floor, may I ask, if hiring a developer under DOS, what is the monthly salary?
Last edited by enjoyer on 2007-6-5 at 11:34 PM ]
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一切从底层开始 |
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2007-6-4 12:42 |
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firstsail
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『第 7 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
聘请DOS下的开发人员,开出的月薪只需UNIX开发人员的2/5,大约¥3500元(2007,深圳)。如果既懂电子开发,又能精通DOS开发,则¥10000元没问题(2007,深圳)
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-4 at 01:16 PM ]
Hiring DOS developers, the monthly salary is only 2/5 of that for UNIX developers, approximately ¥3500 (2007, Shenzhen). If one is proficient in both electronics development and DOS development, then ¥10000 is no problem (2007, Shenzhen)
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-4 at 01:16 PM ]
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2007-6-4 13:12 |
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whowin
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『第 8 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
我想4楼的朋友误会了我的意思,我又看了一遍我的帖子,我并没有要拿DOS和LINUX和WIN CE比的意思,我只是觉得,那么多人在琢磨DOS下的GUI,他们好像在走MS曾经走过的路,我一直在DOS下开发产品,以我个人而言,更熟悉8086的架构,只是这几年才更多的在386的保护模式下工作,我也要在DOS下做界面,但是以我的开发经验,绝大多数的产品面对的都是一个很小的LCD,如果在实模式下,BC或TC的图形函数已经足以做出满意的界面,根本没有多窗口的需求,也根本不需要诸如键盘和鼠标的支持,实际使用的分辨率往往只有320 * 240,有时还使用低分辨率的字符方式,即使是在VGA下做,VESA也足够做出满意的界面了,那么费力地去开发一个DOS下的看上去有点类似WINDOWS的GUI干什么用呢,我想不出我做的什么东西上用的上。如果在保护模式下做,ALLEGRO提供的图象和界面能力,远远超出我的需求,我想只有在DOS下做游戏的人才用得上那么复杂的图形能力。
如果只是偶尔一个项目需要一个多窗口的类似WINDOWS的GUI,把它做成产品恐怕不会有多大的生命力。
倒是如果有人开发下DOS下显示JPEG或GIF,或者将BMP转换成JPG,把JPG转成BMP的库函数倒是有些用处,曾经我在一个项目中需要把采集的图象存储成JPG格式,当然免不了要显示JPG格式,找了很久没有找到库,只好自己做,非常累人。
另外我还想说的是,做windows,不懂硬件没有什么大不了的,做DOS不懂硬件,我真的不知道他能干什么,有的时候,软件人员必须为硬件工程师提出良好的设计方法,还拿我最新开的这块GX3+CS5536的主板为例,我在CS5536的I2C上让工程师连接了2个设备,一个AIT2138(vga转av)和一个DS3231(高精度时钟),通过I2C对这两颗芯片的操作均正常,但如果有AIT2138这颗芯片,CS5536的WATCHDOG将有点不正常,我检查了电路,一切都是按照规范,老实说,至今我不知道为什么有这个问题,但是,我让工程师把AIT2138连接到BT878A的I2C下,或者连接到空闲的GPIO下就没有问题了,这种事,软件工程师解决不了,硬件工程师也没有出错,如果没有一个软硬都拿得起来的人,扯皮在所难免。
I think the friend on the 4th floor misunderstood my meaning. I read my post again. I didn't mean to compare DOS with LINUX and WIN CE. I just feel that so many people are pondering the GUI under DOS, and they seem to be going the way MS once did. I have been developing products under DOS. Personally, I am more familiar with the 8086 architecture. Only in recent years have I worked more in the protected mode of 386. I also need to make interfaces under DOS. But from my development experience, most products face a very small LCD. In real mode, the graphics functions of BC or TC are enough to make a satisfactory interface. There is no need for multi-window at all, and there is no need for support such as keyboard and mouse. The actual resolution used is often only 320 * 240, and sometimes a low-resolution character mode is also used. Even if developing under VGA, VESA is enough to make a satisfactory interface. Why go to the trouble to develop a GUI under DOS that looks a bit like WINDOWS? I can't think of where I would use it. If developing in protected mode, the image and interface capabilities provided by ALLEGRO far exceed my needs. I think only those who make games under DOS would need such complex graphics capabilities.
If only an occasional project needs a multi-window GUI similar to WINDOWS, making it into a product probably won't have much vitality.
In fact, if someone develops library functions for displaying JPEG or GIF under DOS, or converting BMP to JPG, or JPG to BMP, that would be useful. Once I needed to store captured images in JPG format in a project, and of course, I needed to display JPG format. I searched for a long time and didn't find a library, so I had to make it myself, which was very tiring.
In addition, I also want to say that for making windows, it's not a big deal if you don't understand hardware. For making DOS, if you don't understand hardware, I really don't know what he can do. Sometimes, software engineers must propose good design methods for hardware engineers. Take the latest motherboard of GX3 + CS5536 I opened as an example. I asked the engineer to connect 2 devices on the I2C of CS5536, one AIT2138 (VGA to AV) and one DS3231 (high-precision clock). The operations on these two chips via I2C were all normal. But if there is the AIT2138 chip, the WATCHDOG of CS5536 will be a bit abnormal. I checked the circuit, and everything was in accordance with the specifications. To be honest, I still don't know why this problem occurs. But I asked the engineer to connect AIT2138 to the I2C of BT878A or to the idle GPIO, and there was no problem. This kind of thing, software engineers can't solve, and hardware engineers didn't make a mistake. If there is no one who is proficient in both software and hardware, disputes are inevitable.
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2007-6-4 16:40 |
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firstsail
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『第 9 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
以我的开发经验,绝大多数的产品面对的都是一个很小的LCD,如果在实模式下,BC或TC的图形函数已经足以做出满意的界面,根本没有多窗口的需求,也根本不需要诸如键盘和鼠标的支持
以上情况,确实“类Windows GUI”没有多大的作用,这样的项目,往往可以用“单片机”代替。
每一种嵌入式项目的硬件架构各不相同,需要作市场细分。关于DOS下的GUI发展问题,我觉得只限于X86架构下的“嵌入式应用”的讨论,才有实际上的意义!
当今,人门已经对Windows的界面已经根深蒂固,就连工厂里的“操作工”都能较好地使用。如果您选择了“DOS”作为嵌入式操作系统,又需要较好的界面时,“类Windows”的GUI就有很大的优势。否则的话,觉得产品的界面总象飞机上的仪表盘一样复杂。
智能仪器,大多选用80486以下的CPU,并且配置了320*240以上的TFT屏,这时选用
Dos + 类Windows
是一个很不错的选择,2001年以前的大学毕业生,基本上都熟悉DOS,在中国拥有大量的人才储备。
同样硬件架构下,选用“类Windows GUI”的仪器一定能比没有选用“类Windows GUI”的仪器买得好,竞争力更强,从而能给企业带来更多的产品附加值!何乐而不为呢?
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-4 at 06:40 PM ]
From my development experience, the vast majority of products are faced with a very small LCD. In real mode, the graphics functions of BC or TC are sufficient to make a satisfactory interface. There is no need for multiple windows at all, and there is no need for support such as the keyboard and mouse
The above situation indeed means that "Windows-like GUI" is not very useful. Such projects can often be replaced by "microcontrollers".
Each embedded project has different hardware architectures, and market segmentation needs to be done. Regarding the development of GUI under DOS, I think that only the discussion of "embedded applications" under the X86 architecture has practical significance!
Nowadays, people have been deeply rooted in the Windows interface, and even factory "operators" can use it well. If you choose "DOS" as the embedded operating system and need a good interface, the "Windows-like" GUI has great advantages. Otherwise, I feel that the product interface always looks as complicated as the dashboard on an airplane.
Smart instruments mostly use CPUs below 80486 and are equipped with TFT screens of 320*240 or above. At this time, choosing Dos + Windows-like is a very good choice. College graduates before 2001 basically were familiar with DOS, and there are a large number of talent reserves in China.
Under the same hardware architecture, the instrument using "Windows-like GUI" must be able to sell better and have stronger competitiveness than the instrument not using "Windows-like GUI", thereby bringing more product added value to the enterprise! Why not?
Last edited by firstsail on 2007-6-4 at 06:40 PM ]
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2007-6-4 18:24 |
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stockghost
中级用户
  
积分 215
发帖 105
注册 2007-6-2
状态 离线
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『第 10 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
哈哈,别争了,各有各的道理.
我在DOS下也做了不少工作,在Windows下也做了点工作,所以我看大家都有理.
Haha, don't argue, everyone has their own reasons.
I've done a lot of work under DOS, and also a little work under Windows, so I think everyone is reasonable.
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2007-6-4 20:49 |
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enjoyer
中级用户
   部落守望者
积分 351
发帖 140
注册 2006-6-19
状态 离线
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『第 11 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
问问楼上的几位朋友,精通DOS开发同时又懂电子开发的人主要做一些什么样的项目啊?我对DOS在嵌入式领域的应用不了解,请楼上的朋友给指点指点,谢谢!
Asking the friends upstairs, what kind of projects do people who are proficient in DOS development and also understand electronics development mainly do? I don't understand the application of DOS in the embedded field. Please give me some pointers, thank you!
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一切从底层开始 |
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2007-6-10 01:17 |
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firstsail
高级用户
   
积分 668
发帖 295
注册 2005-7-26 来自 广东深圳
状态 离线
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『第 12 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
(1)大部份数控机床
(2)大部份医疗设备
(3)数字示波器
(4)智能仪器仪表
(5)检测设备
(6)PLC(好多PLC内部是用8086CPU)
(7)大型系统中的下位机部份
......
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(1)Most CNC machine tools
(2)Most medical equipment
(3)Digital oscilloscopes
(4)Smart instrumentation
(5)Testing equipment
(6)PLC (many PLCs use 8086 CPU internally)
(7)Lower - level machine parts in large systems
......
.......
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2007-6-11 13:10 |
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yueluck
初级用户
 
积分 32
发帖 14
注册 2007-6-14
状态 离线
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『第 13 楼』:
难得
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
你们争吵的精神值得我学习,务实求真.
但是你们2个都正确,一个是重于简约并有实际应用价值,一个专著与研究,学习,还有自己的追求,能体现gun的精神.我能有你们2个的技术就好了.我就能自己挣钱吃饭了.
你们的话让我学到很多东西,希望你们也能给条名路,让我着毕业生,不要天天勒紧腰带.
The spirit of your argument is worthy of my learning, practical and seeking truth.
But both of you are correct. One focuses on simplicity and has practical application value, and the other is dedicated to research, study, and has his own pursuit, which can reflect the spirit of gun. If only I could have the technologies of both of you. Then I could earn money to support myself.
Your words have taught me a lot. I hope you can also show me a way, for me, a graduate, not to live on a tight budget every day.
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2007-6-14 17:10 |
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yueluck
初级用户
 
积分 32
发帖 14
注册 2007-6-14
状态 离线
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『第 14 楼』:
麻烦
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
你有整套程序吗?包裹鼠标,键盘,图形界面,
我在学习阶段,非常感谢你.
还有就是我今年毕业,深圳有要我着毕业生的吗?
Do you have a complete set of programs? Including mouse, keyboard, graphical interface,
I'm in the learning stage, thank you very much.
Also, I will graduate this year. Are there any employers in Shenzhen hiring fresh graduates?
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2007-6-18 14:12 |
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zhb1284
新手上路

积分 14
发帖 6
注册 2007-4-24
状态 离线
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『第 15 楼』:
使用 LLM 解释/回答一下
唉,我对搂主的敬佩之情如滔滔江水,我最近想在DOS下做一款嵌入式的项目,但发现网上资料好少,不知道从何入手啊
Alas, my admiration for the original poster is like a surging river. Recently I want to do an embedded project under DOS, but I find there are very few materials online and don't know how to start.
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2007-6-30 08:57 |
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